Curse

Konig Des Todes · Apr 21, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Only issue with the first idea, is that a lich cannot normally be killed, his soul must be forced out of him. This is why Joko could not be killed, nor The Hunter (although not a lich, Khilbron did the soul forcing thing, similar to what Zoldark did to his minions). The bloodstone forced the soul out of Khilbron.

The second suggestion, does sound reasonable.

Malchior · Apr 21, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The guards mention in pre searing that on the very day of the Searing, Ascalons Chosen are participating in a guild war with Orr somewere. I also remember it being said somewere that when the Charr attacked Ascalon in full force, guilds from Orr and Kryta quickly retreated back to their respective kingdoms to try and protect them, indicating they were fighting in the guild wars or were heading to fight a guild war.

So it would seem the guild wars were still happening on the very day of Ascalons fall.

Damn, you beat me to it. As I was reading his post I also thought of the Ascalon Guard mentioning that "Ascalon's Chosen are out fighting another Orrian guild today". So yeah, I can back this up. But then the charr are stupid, because...

They wanted the lands that were taken from them, thus the whole attacking Ascalon and ect. But why in hell did they attack Orr and Kryta aswell? If they had any brains they would've worked WITH Orr and Kryta to defeat Ascalon and take back all their lands. But noooooo.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 21, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

They wanted the lands that were taken from them, thus the whole attacking Ascalon and ect. But why in hell did they attack Orr and Kryta aswell? If they had any brains they would've worked WITH Orr and Kryta to defeat Ascalon and take back all their lands. But noooooo.

They hate humans as a whole, not just Ascalon. And their gods ordered them to attack Kryta and Orr.

Karuro · Apr 21, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Lich Killing 101, as speculated by Requiem for Sanity ;D

Konig Des Todes · Apr 21, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

This conversation probably needs it's own thread...

The problem I see is that, when the Ether Seals are destroyed, souls are released from them, so they don't go into the Realm of Torment (I think - will have to double check the debriefer's dialogue in HP for any hints of the Realm of Torment).

Karuro · Apr 21, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This conversation probably needs it's own thread...

Probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Salinger

Thousands of Chosen just like me were killed upon the Bloodstones. Our souls were captured inside the soul batteries and brought here to power the Door of Komalie.

The souls are thus in the Soul batteries, which we destroy.
So there is nothing to contain Khilbron's Soul with after powering, except to throw him inside the Door.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 22, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

In the Cinematic after Khilbron's death, you can notice a few Soul Batteries are floating above. So, can't be to sure that they were destroyed... The force, yes, but the material, no, and they would just repower up and go back into action - possibly...

Need Anet to clarify this... get Jeff on the line!

Gmr Leon · Apr 22, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I don't think it requires clarification from Anet, honestly. Think like a scientist, form a hypothesis, conduct experiments or observations. The latter is much easier than the former in a game environment, thus we must observe the only situation in which souls are injected into the Soul Batteries in Bloodstone Fen. Note the inscriptions that were on the Bloodstone that seemed to draw the souls to the Batteries. These same inscriptions are missing on the Bloodstone in Hell's Precipice, if I am not mistaken, and thus it could not be utilized to charge the Soul Batteries remaining there. Not only that, but if memory serves, there was a sharp bit of the jade material jutting out underneath the Bloodstone which it would seem, and I have no firm basis for this, to act as a receiver of the energy from the Soul Battery above it, and then as a transmitter to the Door to keep it sealed shut.

draxynnic · Apr 22, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Only issue with the first idea, is that a lich cannot normally be killed, his soul must be forced out of him. This is why Joko could not be killed, nor The Hunter (although not a lich, Khilbron did the soul forcing thing, similar to what Zoldark did to his minions). The bloodstone forced the soul out of Khilbron.

The second suggestion, does sound reasonable.

The problem you list with the first solution can be resolved if we consider the Bloodstone to have a constant pull, and our job was to weaken Khilbron enough for him to succumb to that pull.

The second solution also has problems - if the Door is technically open but blocked by the volcano, couldn't the Titans still manage to slip through eventually? I'll need to refresh myself on Titan lore, but I seem to recall they were actually insubstantial until they formed a body, so they may simply be able to float to the surface regardless of obstructions and build a body there. Geology may slow them, but Glint gave an impression that the Door was closed, not just obstructed.

Possibly a better tweak is to have Khilbron stuck in the soul batteries until Nightfall began, but as the other walls on his prison weakened, Abaddon was able to pull Khilbron through to serve as his general... and, incidentally, reopen the Door, but fortunately we were able to defeat Abaddon and besiege Mallyx in time to prevent that entrance from being exploited.

Malchior · Apr 22, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

They hate humans as a whole, not just Ascalon. And their gods ordered them to attack Kryta and Orr.

Yeah, but still. They could've gone about it way better. Maybe with teaming up with Kryta and Orr to beat Ascalon, and then once they've been defeated then just double cross them both. That would've been way easier for them.

Free Runner · Apr 22, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

Yeah, but still. They could've gone about it way better. Maybe with teaming up with Kryta and Orr to beat Ascalon, and then once they've been defeated then just double cross them both. That would've been way easier for them.

Well first of all the Humans probably have zero trust in the Charr. So when a bunch of Charr walk up to them and ask them to team up with them to totally eradicate a whole Human kingdom, it probably wouldnt go down too well with Kryta and Orr. Also the Charr have too much pride to work with Humans. Its only after their gods are unmasked that they begin to not care ("they" being Pyre and the Charr who are against the Shamens)

Malchior · Apr 22, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Well first of all the Humans probably have zero trust in the Charr. So when a bunch of Charr walk up to them and ask them to team up with them to totally eradicate a whole Human kingdom, it probably wouldnt go down too well with Kryta and Orr. Also the Charr have too much pride to work with Humans. Its only after their gods are unmasked that they begin to not care ("they" being Pyre and the Charr who are against the Shamens)

Yeah, I guess so. But then it's like in Stargate Atlantis (If anyone here watched it while it was running)

There has been times in the past the humans teamed up with the Wraith (Beings who suck the life force out of humans to feed) on certain missions due to a common goal. Wraith have been enemies with humans for something near 10,000 years, and of course there was alot of mistrust. But it's not impossible.

You're right though. I wonder how things would've turned out between the charr and the human kingdoms without the shamans ordering war on the humans via their "gods"...
Because the Charr and Norn have a sort of unspoken respect for the other's strength and as a result they're near completely neutral with one another. There's a few minor skirmishes between them because they're fighter type races, but the charr don't want to wipe the Norn out, but they aren't scared of them either. We know that Ascalon was feared due to it's army and the G. Northern Wall, but the charr pushed on because they were ordered. Maybe if they never were they might've given up and actually respected our strength?

It's certainly possible

Konig Des Todes · Apr 23, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

Yeah, I guess so. But then it's like in Stargate Atlantis (If anyone here watched it while it was running)

There has been times in the past the humans teamed up with the Wraith (Beings who suck the life force out of humans to feed) on certain missions due to a common goal. Wraith have been enemies with humans for something near 10,000 years, and of course there was alot of mistrust. But it's not impossible.

Difference is that the Wraith don't hate the humans, they just view them as lesser beings and, as such, food.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

You're right though. I wonder how things would've turned out between the charr and the human kingdoms without the shamans ordering war on the humans via their "gods"...
Because the Charr and Norn have a sort of unspoken respect for the other's strength and as a result they're near completely neutral with one another. There's a few minor skirmishes between them because they're fighter type races, but the charr don't want to wipe the Norn out, but they aren't scared of them either. We know that Ascalon was feared due to it's army and the G. Northern Wall, but the charr pushed on because they were ordered. Maybe if they never were they might've given up and actually respected our strength?

It's certainly possible

What would have happened would be that the Charr would still have internal conflicts. According to the Ecology of the Charr, the Charr stopped their internal conflicts (for a time) because of the appearance of the Titans and the Burnt Warband (and therefore Flame Legion) declaring the Titans their gods. With having gods, whether true or false (I don't think the rival legions cared for the genuinity if Burntsoul and Torg Bloodspine didn't, as long as the act of having gods did their purpose), the Shamans could unit the Charr. Without the gods, there would be no uniting, and as such, no strength to start an offense on the humans.

No Titans=No Shaman Caste=No Attack on Humans.

And if the Charr didn't attack humans, they wouldn't even see a chance to see their "strength" until humans pushed the Charr back instead of fighting themselves.

Malchior · Apr 23, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Difference is that the Wraith don't hate the humans, they just view them as lesser beings and, as such, food.

What would have happened would be that the Charr would still have internal conflicts. According to the Ecology of the Charr, the Charr stopped their internal conflicts (for a time) because of the appearance of the Titans and the Burnt Warband (and therefore Flame Legion) declaring the Titans their gods. With having gods, whether true or false (I don't think the rival legions cared for the genuinity if Burntsoul and Torg Bloodspine didn't, as long as the act of having gods did their purpose), the Shamans could unit the Charr. Without the gods, there would be no uniting, and as such, no strength to start an offense on the humans.

No Titans=No Shaman Caste=No Attack on Humans.

And if the Charr didn't attack humans, they wouldn't even see a chance to see their "strength" until humans pushed the Charr back instead of fighting themselves.

True about the wraith I guess

"The Charr were once a primitive people, filled with rage and a primal drive to dominate and control. They fought everything that threatened them – even one another – only surviving this brutal period by evolving into a strict hierarchical society." - Ecology of the Charr

If they were never assembled and united under one leader then the never would've been ordered to attack Ascalon, correct. But as you can see from the above quote is that the charr will fight anything or anyone that they want to, and it would've certainly only been a matter of time before they attacked the Ascalonians. Not with the firey hatred and ect they did with the searing, but they would've fought them somewhat casually, because that's what charr do.

No one ever ordered them to attack the Norn in GW2 or anything, they do on their own accord and have learned to respect the Norn's stength without fearing it too much. That then came to be a sort of natural peace between them both. It's possible the same could've happened with Asclaon, because the king would have just kept 100% on the defence and the charr would've eventually learned that the Ascalons and the great northern wall is nothing to be messed about with, and the same sort of natural peace would have happened.

If rurik was king however...

Konig Des Todes · Apr 23, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Oh I don't mean they would never fight them. Warbands and/or Legions would have some campaigns and raids against the humans. That is the case the whole time in fact, which is why the Great Wall was needed. Above the wall the line of Charr and Human territory was ever changing I recall reading - similar to the Kurzick/Luxon line in Factions.

The Charr attacking Norn, and vice versa, is a different story. The Charr do not have a reason to hate them, but due to their nature they fight those that may cause a threat. But because Norn hardly go into Charr territory, there is minimal threat - and when the boundary is crossed, then there is a fight. The only reason the Charr hate humans as a whole is because of the Ascalonians stealing their lands, beating them back easily due to the help of the True Gods, and because the Charr have always disliked the True Gods.

All of that is pretty much stated in the Ecology of the Charr. I don't think the Charr would ever like humans (on a large scale) due to the gods, the Ascalonians stealing half their land, and beating them so easily due to the gods' help.

Even if the Charr never brought the Searing, there would still be dozens of skirmishes with the Humans (similar to how I expect there to be Charr/Norn skirmishes)

It's a similar issue to Israel. After WW2, the land was given to Hebrews, kicking out the people there from before. And now you have constant warfare. Due to religious differences, and the land being taken, the conflict most likely won't end for a very long time. But the Charr also have their nature in addition to the problem, which makes them less likely to ever calm down to the point of not hating humans.

draxynnic · Apr 24, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

It's amazing what a common enemy can do. Who would have imagined in 1812 that Britain, France and the US would be fighting on the same side not much more than a century later?

In the absence of that, though... whatever the Norn think of the Charr, I've tended to think that the Charr attitude towards the Norn was 'we have bigger mice to fry'. However dangerous a single Norn can be, their antipathy to large-scale military formations, tendency to stay in their own territory, and relative lack of magic (how many spellcasting Norn do you see?) mean that they aren't really much of a threat. Humanity, however, despite all the contemptuous epithets the Charr use such as 'mouse' and 'meat', has armies, powerful magic, and had proven to be able to use those effectively by conquering former Charr land. To the Charr mindset, delaying the subjugation of the Norn and at least giving the semblance of an accord is a more than fair price to pay to be able to concentrate on the greater threat... but there's no hard evidence that there's more to it than that.